Some recent reflections on the psychedelic field’s bifurcation. After this summer, the “cultophilic” side has lost power, and critical psychedelic studies is the field’s academic future.
I am a phase 3 MDMA-AT for PTSD therapist and PI. There seems to be a huge misunderstanding here. What Yensen did in the phase 2 trial is criminal. What Veronika Gold is describing is passive resistance where a therapist might put up a hand so that the patient/ client/ participant can push against the therapist’s hand. The patient themselves would provide the force or pressure and NOT the therapist. The therapist does not provide pressure and the patient’s movements would never be restricted. The patient can remove their hand at any time Safe word or no safe word, it would never be ok to pin down a person or restrict their movement as a form of therapy. MDMA-AT is about empowerment for the participant. What Veronika is describing is NOT a form of trauma “reenactment.” Rather, a patient might ask to have a therapist put out their hand so that the participant themselves can push against the therapist’s hand. This can be an opportunity for a corrective experience and sense of empowerment where a participant can have an opportunity to push against the therapist’s hand and yell out in this safe setting in way that they weren’t able to originally. The participant’s movements are not restricted and they can remove their hand at any time.
Here is more of the text from "Integral Psychedelic TherapyThe Non-Ordinary Art of Psychospiritual Healing" which is the Veronika Gold session Nese took a section of when describing Gold "pinning down the patient while they screamed "get your fucking hands off me"".
"Annie reported feeling tension in her hands and a desire to move them but also feeling frozen. Making use of a technique to help facilitate connection with the material arising, I encouraged her to breathe into the sensation to make more space for what was coming up for her. (This request is not the same as asking someone to breathe deeply to calm an unpleasant feeling.) As she connected with the sensations in her hands, Annie started to feel anger and a desire to push her father away. I encouraged her to imagine doing that. Her hands moved out from underneath her and forward in a pushing motion. I offered to provide physical resistance. She liked the idea, and she started to push against my hands while focusing on her inner experience. Annie began to add her voice, expressing anger and saying, “Go away! Get your fucking hands away from me!” The words were clearly meant for her father and did not indicate that she wanted me to go away or stop. Because we had the agreement to use the specific safe word “enough” if she wanted me to stop the touch, there was no confusion in my mind about how to proceed. Over the course of the next several minutes, she pushed my hands with increasing vigor and force. The process continued, and she yelled, “Now he is gone! I have my strength back, and he has no chance of coming back.”"
The patient is clearly speaking to her father here, her abuser, in a symbolic fashion, while processing the trauma and not the therapist. So either she is an idiot, who didn't bother to read the entire text or you intentionally took it out of context to make it look bad. There is also no mention of the patient being "pinned down".
I find this post deeply alarming. Devenot continues to double down on their misrepresentation of Veronika Gold, who is indeed a leader in our community and a compassionate, highly trained and ethical therapist. Like Susan, I am a Phase 3 therapist and co-principal investigator on the Lykos Trials. I am completely baffled and saddened by this slander of Gold. I hope reasonable folks can recognize the harm that Devenot's careless and unfounded claims are inflicting here and think twice before believing them. Hurt people hurt people, indeed.
Here is more of the text from "Integral Psychedelic TherapyThe Non-Ordinary Art of Psychospiritual Healing" which is the Veronika Gold session Nese took a section of when describing Gold "pinning down the patient while they screamed "get your fucking hands off me"".
"Annie reported feeling tension in her hands and a desire to move them but also feeling frozen. Making use of a technique to help facilitate connection with the material arising, I encouraged her to breathe into the sensation to make more space for what was coming up for her. (This request is not the same as asking someone to breathe deeply to calm an unpleasant feeling.) As she connected with the sensations in her hands, Annie started to feel anger and a desire to push her father away. I encouraged her to imagine doing that. Her hands moved out from underneath her and forward in a pushing motion. I offered to provide physical resistance. She liked the idea, and she started to push against my hands while focusing on her inner experience. Annie began to add her voice, expressing anger and saying, “Go away! Get your fucking hands away from me!” The words were clearly meant for her father and did not indicate that she wanted me to go away or stop. Because we had the agreement to use the specific safe word “enough” if she wanted me to stop the touch, there was no confusion in my mind about how to proceed. Over the course of the next several minutes, she pushed my hands with increasing vigor and force. The process continued, and she yelled, “Now he is gone! I have my strength back, and he has no chance of coming back.”"
The patient is clearly speaking to her father here, her abuser, in a symbolic fashion, while processing the trauma and not the therapist. So either she is an idiot, who didn't bother to read the entire text or you intentionally took it out of context to make it look bad. There is also no mention of the patient being "pinned down".
I am so sorry to hear about the threats and attacks as a result of your academic and advocacy work. Im glad you took a break.
As a doc and researcher that sees real value for psychedelic use in both medical and community contexts (and is looking to pilot some small studies about approaches that integrate the two) I am highly concerned about the enormous potential for exploitation, abuse, and other terrible outcomes. not to mention huge well funded groups overpromising benefits and saying that critique will ‘destroy the movement.’
I am wealthy enough to have had my own experience of group based ketamine which was really positive, and then individual treatment which was also positive/with a safe person. After my first treatment my thought after was holy shit this is so ripe for abuse. Finding your work has been really important to me (also feel real ridiculous that I found it *after* you left CLE).
It disappoints me that there isn’t an interest in genuinely engaging what has already happened to people, and what we need to do to keep psychedelic research above reproach—the people coming to us have already experienced abuse, including medical trauma. our ethical standards need to be rock solid, clear, and consensual. Higher than what is typically expected. The idea that people on these meds can use a safe word is shocking—it’s both contrary to the power relationship and the psychic vulnerability created on these substances.
I don’t know how to shift the notion that critique will ‘destroy the movement’ rather than do the opposite—the whole point is to build rigorous, theoretically well grounded, reproducible work that ensures the protection of anyone that participates. If we don’t agree with that as scientists—-we’re not in good company.
Here is more of the text from "Integral Psychedelic TherapyThe Non-Ordinary Art of Psychospiritual Healing" which is the Veronika Gold session Nese took a section of when describing Gold "pinning down the patient while they screamed "get your fucking hands off me"".
"Annie reported feeling tension in her hands and a desire to move them but also feeling frozen. Making use of a technique to help facilitate connection with the material arising, I encouraged her to breathe into the sensation to make more space for what was coming up for her. (This request is not the same as asking someone to breathe deeply to calm an unpleasant feeling.) As she connected with the sensations in her hands, Annie started to feel anger and a desire to push her father away. I encouraged her to imagine doing that. Her hands moved out from underneath her and forward in a pushing motion. I offered to provide physical resistance. She liked the idea, and she started to push against my hands while focusing on her inner experience. Annie began to add her voice, expressing anger and saying, “Go away! Get your fucking hands away from me!” The words were clearly meant for her father and did not indicate that she wanted me to go away or stop. Because we had the agreement to use the specific safe word “enough” if she wanted me to stop the touch, there was no confusion in my mind about how to proceed. Over the course of the next several minutes, she pushed my hands with increasing vigor and force. The process continued, and she yelled, “Now he is gone! I have my strength back, and he has no chance of coming back.”"
The patient is clearly speaking to her father here, her abuser, in a symbolic fashion, while processing the trauma, and not the therapist. So either you are an idiot, who didn't bother to read the entire text or you intentionally took it out of context to make it look bad. I am guessing the later. There is also no mention of the patient being "pinned down".
I've been very clear about my position on this in my substack writing, and my argument is about to be published in an academic journal. Other academics agree with me, so I am clearly not lying.
Your argument is irrelevant. When the full text is read is read, it's clear that you intentionally mischaracterized and took it out of context to make it look like it was something it was not simply to bolster your position. Also, when you continue to block anyone who offers a critique of you lies, it just makes you look like more of a liar.
I think there will continue to be problems, both small and very large, with psychedelic therapy as it is presently perceived and constructed. Although a thousands-of-years-old tradition of healing using psychoactive plants is well known and studied, most modern therapists are vary far indeed from being shamans who really know the territories they are dealing with. And these territories are not in "in" the drugs, nor are they "in" the procedures and protocols they are forcing on their clients!
from my review of Psychedelic Drugs Reconsideed, first appearing in 1992(?) in the International Journal of Drug Policy
What psychedelics show us collectively about ourselves is that we have squandered the greatest of all opportunities. Just as the natural plant psychedelics have catalyzed and accompanied important evolutionary developments for mankind in the distant past, they have still an enormous potential for helping to bring about further far-reaching benefits. Not in a year or two, of course! but rather in the long-run of many generations as they “help us to explore and fathom our own nature,” in the words of Humphrey Osmond. I do not know of anyone who is personally acquainted with these archetypal states of consciousness who believes themselves capable of drawing the limits of their importance or potential to assist eventual far-reaching beneficial changes in society. Psychedelics do not correct behavior, of course, nor will they act as a ‘medicament’ that will cure some malady or dysfunction even when the patient is unconscious or indisposed, they are no ‘cure’ for what ails the human race, no insurance that the events of the 21st Century and beyond will not be even more menacing and filled with atrocity than our own sad example of civilization in the 20th. But psychedelics can and have historically acted as a potent aid and illuminating window to a larger consciousness potential in all human beings, but one which had no evolutionary advantage until the dawn of human existence. Thus this larger consciousness is not instinctively inherent in our makeup, we do not automatically bring it to bear nor trust in it the way we instinctively trust fear or other evolution-installed states of consciousness, but rather avoid it. The task before us is to gain trust in the psychedelic experience, to let the wider vision provided act as our guide and teacher for overcoming primitive instincts that no longer serve our survival but actually endanger it...
See what the presence of psychedelics in our midst has demonstrated about our culture and collective nature! It has been said that if peaceful aliens from another planet landed on earth, we would most likely misunderstand their intentions, betray and destroy them long before learning of the reason for their visit. This is precisely what has happened with psychedelic drugs, for they are visitors from the ancient past, the equivalent of another universe of consciousness, returning with messages of peace and co-operation among men, and instead of hearing them out we have made war against them.
And, I should add, now that we are no longer officially making war against them as we did for so many decades, we are instead trying every which-way to turn psychedelic therapy and psychedelics themselves into a big money-spinner, to make them yet another part of melt-down, Greed-is-Good, BigMoney Capitalism. This cannot possibly achieve anything except the troubles you recount so well in your post.
Nicely said. Serving two masters is going to cause problems here, and the massive amount of money and ego invested in producing material gain from psychedelics is...well, from a distance, it's hilarious. Closer up, I'm just sad that folks, who seem like they could have learned something from psychedelics, seem determined to remain mired in their own egos.
'Given the timeframe, Gorman implied that I was “viciously attack[ing]” Veronika Gold, which demonstrates his ignorance about the nature of systemic critique.'
Ingmar Gorman here. You're reading something into my comment that isn't there. I wasn't referring to Veronika Gold.
Who were you referring to as being openly attacked? I assume because it was public attacking you’re talking about, this is not confidential info — could you link to the open attacking you saw? Would be useful for all to be able to see what this was.
The beginning of the quote Neşe references, “You’re [i.e., Psymposia is] critiquing the integrity of us as therapists…” starts around the 20-minute mark of the podcast. The end of the quoted material, “…they’re being really viciously attacked for it,” appears at the 49-minute mark. I understand Neşe’s goal of capturing the essence without the full transcript, but there’s nearly 30 minutes of conversation between the start and end of the selected quotes.
To provide context, here’s the relevant section from the transcript at the 49-minute mark:
"Yeah. Again coming back to the people. Right. US Clinicians the staff at Lykos, some of whom have been attacked and are actively being attacked right now. They just got into this to help people. I know it sounds naive. Of course, they wanted to get paid as well. And they're feeling. I know some people are really feeling hurt that this is the intention that they went into this work with, and they're being really viciously attacked for it. And by the way, I should also say, look, you and I have mentioned symposia several times in a very critical light, and I want to make sure that. Don't harass them, don't send them threatening emails, don't. Because they've also, from my understanding, experienced a lot of not just hate, but threats, and that's absolutely not appropriate. So I want to really make that clear. And I think there's an argument to be made that for people who are acting unethically, things need to be brought to light. But psymposia has not been. I mean, they said I'm a member of a cult, and they called 100 of my fellow investigators cult members. They're not known for subtlety or nuance."
Van, these attacks weren't public, but I can clarify what I meant by the "attack" statements. The target of these attacks wasn’t Veronika, and those responsible weren’t Neşe or Psymposia. Although I never explicitly mention it in the podcast, at the time, I learned that there were journalists engaging in a tactic sometimes called "disgruntled source journalism" or "hit piece reporting." These journalists sought out former Lykos employees after the company’s major downsizing to unearth rumors or internal issues to create sensationalist articles. Unlike Psymposia and Sasha Sisko, whose motivations are more ethics-driven, these journalists weren’t concerned with ethical accountability at all. Apparently, there are journalists who make their entire career of contacting former employees after a company has a major downsizing (as Lykos did) and publishing pieces sourced by high emotionally charged accounts of disaffected employees.
Looking back at my quote, I see how I jump from the "attack" statements to then try to protect members of Psymposia from harassment and threats, which then associates Psymposia as being the source of the attacks that I'm referencing above. In the midst of the interview, I was probably aware that I was talking about "attacks" and then wanting to make sure that Psymposia doesn't get more harassment, but then inadvertently associated the two.
You're saying that what you meant by therapists are "actively being attacked right now" was that there were journalists behind the scenes trying to get stories out of former employees? Who are these journalists? Could you link to two or three. I'd really like to look more at their careers built on "disgruntled source journalism" - very concerning.
I did listen to the whole episode when it came out. It seems the only context you're adding is that in the end you told people not to harass Psypmosia? I'm not sure what this changes - the pulled quotes weren't misleading.
Neşe, thanks for not giving up. I hope the literature can progress into conversation and look forward to your future publications. The hostility and threats suggest to me that many folks still need to learn the lessons offered by psychedelics. (Or, maybe do any actual self work.) There's no place for ad hominem attacks in honest discussion.
We've got to be pristine in how we approach facilitation or therapy with psychedelics. I wish that no one would fear a deep examination of the ethical and interpersonal effects of our actions. This isn't easy and there are so many temptations. Critique, by self or other, is absolutely necessary here and we need evidence-based guidelines. Can't just dream about them.
I am a phase 3 MDMA-AT for PTSD therapist and PI. There seems to be a huge misunderstanding here. What Yensen did in the phase 2 trial is criminal. What Veronika Gold is describing is passive resistance where a therapist might put up a hand so that the patient/ client/ participant can push against the therapist’s hand. The patient themselves would provide the force or pressure and NOT the therapist. The therapist does not provide pressure and the patient’s movements would never be restricted. The patient can remove their hand at any time Safe word or no safe word, it would never be ok to pin down a person or restrict their movement as a form of therapy. MDMA-AT is about empowerment for the participant. What Veronika is describing is NOT a form of trauma “reenactment.” Rather, a patient might ask to have a therapist put out their hand so that the participant themselves can push against the therapist’s hand. This can be an opportunity for a corrective experience and sense of empowerment where a participant can have an opportunity to push against the therapist’s hand and yell out in this safe setting in way that they weren’t able to originally. The participant’s movements are not restricted and they can remove their hand at any time.
Here is more of the text from "Integral Psychedelic TherapyThe Non-Ordinary Art of Psychospiritual Healing" which is the Veronika Gold session Nese took a section of when describing Gold "pinning down the patient while they screamed "get your fucking hands off me"".
"Annie reported feeling tension in her hands and a desire to move them but also feeling frozen. Making use of a technique to help facilitate connection with the material arising, I encouraged her to breathe into the sensation to make more space for what was coming up for her. (This request is not the same as asking someone to breathe deeply to calm an unpleasant feeling.) As she connected with the sensations in her hands, Annie started to feel anger and a desire to push her father away. I encouraged her to imagine doing that. Her hands moved out from underneath her and forward in a pushing motion. I offered to provide physical resistance. She liked the idea, and she started to push against my hands while focusing on her inner experience. Annie began to add her voice, expressing anger and saying, “Go away! Get your fucking hands away from me!” The words were clearly meant for her father and did not indicate that she wanted me to go away or stop. Because we had the agreement to use the specific safe word “enough” if she wanted me to stop the touch, there was no confusion in my mind about how to proceed. Over the course of the next several minutes, she pushed my hands with increasing vigor and force. The process continued, and she yelled, “Now he is gone! I have my strength back, and he has no chance of coming back.”"
The patient is clearly speaking to her father here, her abuser, in a symbolic fashion, while processing the trauma and not the therapist. So either she is an idiot, who didn't bother to read the entire text or you intentionally took it out of context to make it look bad. There is also no mention of the patient being "pinned down".
I find this post deeply alarming. Devenot continues to double down on their misrepresentation of Veronika Gold, who is indeed a leader in our community and a compassionate, highly trained and ethical therapist. Like Susan, I am a Phase 3 therapist and co-principal investigator on the Lykos Trials. I am completely baffled and saddened by this slander of Gold. I hope reasonable folks can recognize the harm that Devenot's careless and unfounded claims are inflicting here and think twice before believing them. Hurt people hurt people, indeed.
Here is more of the text from "Integral Psychedelic TherapyThe Non-Ordinary Art of Psychospiritual Healing" which is the Veronika Gold session Nese took a section of when describing Gold "pinning down the patient while they screamed "get your fucking hands off me"".
"Annie reported feeling tension in her hands and a desire to move them but also feeling frozen. Making use of a technique to help facilitate connection with the material arising, I encouraged her to breathe into the sensation to make more space for what was coming up for her. (This request is not the same as asking someone to breathe deeply to calm an unpleasant feeling.) As she connected with the sensations in her hands, Annie started to feel anger and a desire to push her father away. I encouraged her to imagine doing that. Her hands moved out from underneath her and forward in a pushing motion. I offered to provide physical resistance. She liked the idea, and she started to push against my hands while focusing on her inner experience. Annie began to add her voice, expressing anger and saying, “Go away! Get your fucking hands away from me!” The words were clearly meant for her father and did not indicate that she wanted me to go away or stop. Because we had the agreement to use the specific safe word “enough” if she wanted me to stop the touch, there was no confusion in my mind about how to proceed. Over the course of the next several minutes, she pushed my hands with increasing vigor and force. The process continued, and she yelled, “Now he is gone! I have my strength back, and he has no chance of coming back.”"
The patient is clearly speaking to her father here, her abuser, in a symbolic fashion, while processing the trauma and not the therapist. So either she is an idiot, who didn't bother to read the entire text or you intentionally took it out of context to make it look bad. There is also no mention of the patient being "pinned down".
I am so sorry to hear about the threats and attacks as a result of your academic and advocacy work. Im glad you took a break.
As a doc and researcher that sees real value for psychedelic use in both medical and community contexts (and is looking to pilot some small studies about approaches that integrate the two) I am highly concerned about the enormous potential for exploitation, abuse, and other terrible outcomes. not to mention huge well funded groups overpromising benefits and saying that critique will ‘destroy the movement.’
I am wealthy enough to have had my own experience of group based ketamine which was really positive, and then individual treatment which was also positive/with a safe person. After my first treatment my thought after was holy shit this is so ripe for abuse. Finding your work has been really important to me (also feel real ridiculous that I found it *after* you left CLE).
It disappoints me that there isn’t an interest in genuinely engaging what has already happened to people, and what we need to do to keep psychedelic research above reproach—the people coming to us have already experienced abuse, including medical trauma. our ethical standards need to be rock solid, clear, and consensual. Higher than what is typically expected. The idea that people on these meds can use a safe word is shocking—it’s both contrary to the power relationship and the psychic vulnerability created on these substances.
I don’t know how to shift the notion that critique will ‘destroy the movement’ rather than do the opposite—the whole point is to build rigorous, theoretically well grounded, reproducible work that ensures the protection of anyone that participates. If we don’t agree with that as scientists—-we’re not in good company.
Here is more of the text from "Integral Psychedelic TherapyThe Non-Ordinary Art of Psychospiritual Healing" which is the Veronika Gold session Nese took a section of when describing Gold "pinning down the patient while they screamed "get your fucking hands off me"".
"Annie reported feeling tension in her hands and a desire to move them but also feeling frozen. Making use of a technique to help facilitate connection with the material arising, I encouraged her to breathe into the sensation to make more space for what was coming up for her. (This request is not the same as asking someone to breathe deeply to calm an unpleasant feeling.) As she connected with the sensations in her hands, Annie started to feel anger and a desire to push her father away. I encouraged her to imagine doing that. Her hands moved out from underneath her and forward in a pushing motion. I offered to provide physical resistance. She liked the idea, and she started to push against my hands while focusing on her inner experience. Annie began to add her voice, expressing anger and saying, “Go away! Get your fucking hands away from me!” The words were clearly meant for her father and did not indicate that she wanted me to go away or stop. Because we had the agreement to use the specific safe word “enough” if she wanted me to stop the touch, there was no confusion in my mind about how to proceed. Over the course of the next several minutes, she pushed my hands with increasing vigor and force. The process continued, and she yelled, “Now he is gone! I have my strength back, and he has no chance of coming back.”"
The patient is clearly speaking to her father here, her abuser, in a symbolic fashion, while processing the trauma, and not the therapist. So either you are an idiot, who didn't bother to read the entire text or you intentionally took it out of context to make it look bad. I am guessing the later. There is also no mention of the patient being "pinned down".
I've been very clear about my position on this in my substack writing, and my argument is about to be published in an academic journal. Other academics agree with me, so I am clearly not lying.
Your argument is irrelevant. When the full text is read is read, it's clear that you intentionally mischaracterized and took it out of context to make it look like it was something it was not simply to bolster your position. Also, when you continue to block anyone who offers a critique of you lies, it just makes you look like more of a liar.
Oh, well if other academics agree, then that definitely means you're not lying.
The whole thing is a joke
I like that a lot
I think there will continue to be problems, both small and very large, with psychedelic therapy as it is presently perceived and constructed. Although a thousands-of-years-old tradition of healing using psychoactive plants is well known and studied, most modern therapists are vary far indeed from being shamans who really know the territories they are dealing with. And these territories are not in "in" the drugs, nor are they "in" the procedures and protocols they are forcing on their clients!
from my review of Psychedelic Drugs Reconsideed, first appearing in 1992(?) in the International Journal of Drug Policy
https://peterwebster.substack.com/p/acid-test
What psychedelics show us collectively about ourselves is that we have squandered the greatest of all opportunities. Just as the natural plant psychedelics have catalyzed and accompanied important evolutionary developments for mankind in the distant past, they have still an enormous potential for helping to bring about further far-reaching benefits. Not in a year or two, of course! but rather in the long-run of many generations as they “help us to explore and fathom our own nature,” in the words of Humphrey Osmond. I do not know of anyone who is personally acquainted with these archetypal states of consciousness who believes themselves capable of drawing the limits of their importance or potential to assist eventual far-reaching beneficial changes in society. Psychedelics do not correct behavior, of course, nor will they act as a ‘medicament’ that will cure some malady or dysfunction even when the patient is unconscious or indisposed, they are no ‘cure’ for what ails the human race, no insurance that the events of the 21st Century and beyond will not be even more menacing and filled with atrocity than our own sad example of civilization in the 20th. But psychedelics can and have historically acted as a potent aid and illuminating window to a larger consciousness potential in all human beings, but one which had no evolutionary advantage until the dawn of human existence. Thus this larger consciousness is not instinctively inherent in our makeup, we do not automatically bring it to bear nor trust in it the way we instinctively trust fear or other evolution-installed states of consciousness, but rather avoid it. The task before us is to gain trust in the psychedelic experience, to let the wider vision provided act as our guide and teacher for overcoming primitive instincts that no longer serve our survival but actually endanger it...
See what the presence of psychedelics in our midst has demonstrated about our culture and collective nature! It has been said that if peaceful aliens from another planet landed on earth, we would most likely misunderstand their intentions, betray and destroy them long before learning of the reason for their visit. This is precisely what has happened with psychedelic drugs, for they are visitors from the ancient past, the equivalent of another universe of consciousness, returning with messages of peace and co-operation among men, and instead of hearing them out we have made war against them.
And, I should add, now that we are no longer officially making war against them as we did for so many decades, we are instead trying every which-way to turn psychedelic therapy and psychedelics themselves into a big money-spinner, to make them yet another part of melt-down, Greed-is-Good, BigMoney Capitalism. This cannot possibly achieve anything except the troubles you recount so well in your post.
Nicely said. Serving two masters is going to cause problems here, and the massive amount of money and ego invested in producing material gain from psychedelics is...well, from a distance, it's hilarious. Closer up, I'm just sad that folks, who seem like they could have learned something from psychedelics, seem determined to remain mired in their own egos.
Nese outright lied at the MAP advisory hearing. This is federal crime. People need to talk about this. See 1:11:16
https://youtu.be/6sh8GE3h7EY?si=Asbu35iN41CABMFy
I told the truth. You are misinformed.
No. You're a liar
'Given the timeframe, Gorman implied that I was “viciously attack[ing]” Veronika Gold, which demonstrates his ignorance about the nature of systemic critique.'
Ingmar Gorman here. You're reading something into my comment that isn't there. I wasn't referring to Veronika Gold.
Who were you referring to as being openly attacked? I assume because it was public attacking you’re talking about, this is not confidential info — could you link to the open attacking you saw? Would be useful for all to be able to see what this was.
The beginning of the quote Neşe references, “You’re [i.e., Psymposia is] critiquing the integrity of us as therapists…” starts around the 20-minute mark of the podcast. The end of the quoted material, “…they’re being really viciously attacked for it,” appears at the 49-minute mark. I understand Neşe’s goal of capturing the essence without the full transcript, but there’s nearly 30 minutes of conversation between the start and end of the selected quotes.
To provide context, here’s the relevant section from the transcript at the 49-minute mark:
"Yeah. Again coming back to the people. Right. US Clinicians the staff at Lykos, some of whom have been attacked and are actively being attacked right now. They just got into this to help people. I know it sounds naive. Of course, they wanted to get paid as well. And they're feeling. I know some people are really feeling hurt that this is the intention that they went into this work with, and they're being really viciously attacked for it. And by the way, I should also say, look, you and I have mentioned symposia several times in a very critical light, and I want to make sure that. Don't harass them, don't send them threatening emails, don't. Because they've also, from my understanding, experienced a lot of not just hate, but threats, and that's absolutely not appropriate. So I want to really make that clear. And I think there's an argument to be made that for people who are acting unethically, things need to be brought to light. But psymposia has not been. I mean, they said I'm a member of a cult, and they called 100 of my fellow investigators cult members. They're not known for subtlety or nuance."
Van, these attacks weren't public, but I can clarify what I meant by the "attack" statements. The target of these attacks wasn’t Veronika, and those responsible weren’t Neşe or Psymposia. Although I never explicitly mention it in the podcast, at the time, I learned that there were journalists engaging in a tactic sometimes called "disgruntled source journalism" or "hit piece reporting." These journalists sought out former Lykos employees after the company’s major downsizing to unearth rumors or internal issues to create sensationalist articles. Unlike Psymposia and Sasha Sisko, whose motivations are more ethics-driven, these journalists weren’t concerned with ethical accountability at all. Apparently, there are journalists who make their entire career of contacting former employees after a company has a major downsizing (as Lykos did) and publishing pieces sourced by high emotionally charged accounts of disaffected employees.
Looking back at my quote, I see how I jump from the "attack" statements to then try to protect members of Psymposia from harassment and threats, which then associates Psymposia as being the source of the attacks that I'm referencing above. In the midst of the interview, I was probably aware that I was talking about "attacks" and then wanting to make sure that Psymposia doesn't get more harassment, but then inadvertently associated the two.
You're saying that what you meant by therapists are "actively being attacked right now" was that there were journalists behind the scenes trying to get stories out of former employees? Who are these journalists? Could you link to two or three. I'd really like to look more at their careers built on "disgruntled source journalism" - very concerning.
I did listen to the whole episode when it came out. It seems the only context you're adding is that in the end you told people not to harass Psypmosia? I'm not sure what this changes - the pulled quotes weren't misleading.
Shame on you and your organization
Neşe, thanks for not giving up. I hope the literature can progress into conversation and look forward to your future publications. The hostility and threats suggest to me that many folks still need to learn the lessons offered by psychedelics. (Or, maybe do any actual self work.) There's no place for ad hominem attacks in honest discussion.
We've got to be pristine in how we approach facilitation or therapy with psychedelics. I wish that no one would fear a deep examination of the ethical and interpersonal effects of our actions. This isn't easy and there are so many temptations. Critique, by self or other, is absolutely necessary here and we need evidence-based guidelines. Can't just dream about them.
Thank you for sharing this! I find "we are planning to respond to the concerns she brought up over time" to be a very strange response.
I'm really glad to hear that you were able to connect with respectful support!
That's very well stated! I really appreciate that you took the time to share your experiences interacting with their clinic.